Episode #01 Unfold
In this first episode we dive into the constant unfolding of time. Marking the beginning of a new year, with an exciting journey ahead, we discuss the art of planning versus being in the now and the dance between actively creating and allowing for what wants to become.
Transcript:
Joseph (00:08):
Welcome to the Dragon in the Stoic, the podcast where a writer and a composer sit down to share insights from the creative industry life of freelance and artistic expression. Each episode is a container in which we explore craftsmanship, relationships, processes, and how to live a life with the courage to create. Finally, we will end each episode with a moment integrating the topics discussed in a curated bespoke experience. What that is, you'll just have to find out, but I guess it's the result of what happens if you put a wordsmith together with a composer. Welcome to the first episode of 2024 Unfold.
Cam (00:58):
All right, here we go. The first episode of the Dragon and the stoic Warm welcome.
Joseph (01:05):
Yeah, welcome to everyone listening. It feels a little bit daunting for us, but also hugely exciting to share with the world some of the things that we find important or things that we think are helpful to us in our daily lives.
Cam (01:23):
But maybe we should start with giving a bit of context of what is that importance? Why do we like talking about the things that we're going to talk about on this podcast?
Joseph (01:34):
Yeah, I guess a good starting point is who the hell we are?
Cam (01:37):
Yeah, good idea.
Joseph (01:39):
Would you like to start?
Cam (01:41):
Sure. I mean, I think it's a little bit awkward and complex on how do you introduce yourself, but I guess I can start with the most, the lowest hanging fruit, which is kind of work experience and so on. So I've had a really, how to say, not a straight road to where I ended up, which to me just it makes more sense in terms of why I ended up where I did. But when I was growing up, I didn't know that I was going to become a brand strategist, and I had no idea I could or wanted to write poetry. I had no idea that intense long stories were living inside of me. So wasn't kind of this person who always knew I was going to become an artist or a creative of any sort, but I studied at Hyper Island, which was just a fabulous experience.
(02:40):
I mean, I have a lot to say about that school, and it's definitely not for everyone, but it is what you make it to be. So you yourself have a complete ownership of the experience that you want out of attending that school. And from there, I had the incredible luck of landing an agency job at Snask in Stockholm. Snask is quite known within our industry. I just couldn't believe it. I got headhunted. It's such a disgusting word. But yeah, I got asked about coming into an interview for very strange reasons, and I can give that little anecdote at a later time, but it evolved a drunken fight at a bar. So I got asked to come in and then I spent the last five years kind of being raised within the walls of Snask and I have so much experience and things that I was raised by them.
(03:44):
It definitely made me who I am. And then I became a little rebellious teenager and it was time for me to leave. So here I am kind of taking my first steps into the world as a full grown adult. It was an incredible school, I would say, where I learned a lot, but it also set me up with a mindset of tackling where I am right now. And I think as this podcast evolves, we'll touch upon specifics in terms of experience with different roles and different kinds of clients and so on. But I think no matter what I've taken on before, I've always been driven to understand the world and hopefully make it more beautiful. And I think it shows in all those crooked roads that led me to this point where I've run a development organization in West Africa when I was pretty young with quite an activist approach to life, to teaching at universities that without a university degree, it's all helped shape me to the creative I am today.
(04:49):
And so many mistakes along the way. Obviously I've been a complete rookie and slowly built a solid idea about who I am and what I'm about. At least up until this point, I'm sure it's going to change many times. Not all has been pretty either, even though maybe it looks it from the outside. For example, I've held a TEDx talk, which I wouldn't say I regret it, but I definitely want to give another TEDx talk that's going to be the topic of why I want to do another TEDx talk. Yeah. At that time in life, I would just like a little rerun, but more about that maybe in a different episode.
Joseph (05:28):
I think on that, there's something really interesting. It's like a place in time and it's documented and it's always there on the internet, isn't it? And it was very much a representation of who you were then and what you were experiencing then. And I think the sort of permanence of it makes it feel potentially have more negative emotions associated with it, I think. But I think what you said in that talk was incredible and is still extremely powerful now. So people should definitely,
Cam (06:02):
No, this is the thing. I always get sweaty hams. It happens that people say like, oh, I googled you and yeah, I saw your, and I'm always like, oh gosh, this is okay. Yeah, thanks. But yeah, I haven't seen that for years now, but I do agree with the main message. It's just very interesting that I think I was so young and I was faking from perhaps a less regulated place where I haven't fully landed a couple of things. But yeah, definitely more about that in a different episode now why won't we stop talking about me and hear a little bit about you?
Joseph (06:43):
Yes, so I'm Joseph and I'm a composer and sounds like it. And I think it was interesting hearing how, yeah, I guess we are quite an interesting duo in that I very much had an idea of what I wanted to do very early on. And I remember being around 16 and 17 and having this, I had this real interest in music and it was whether I was going to pursue that or whether I was going to do something. I think philosophy interestingly was my other sort of
Cam (07:19):
Surprise, surprise
Joseph (07:20):
University consideration, which I think I would've loved that actually. But I chose to do music, so I kind of went through the musical education system, classical degree. And then after that I just wanted to do anything in music and had an opportunity to do some work experience at a studio in soho. And I kind of been in soho ever since really up until last summer. And very much how it works in London for those that don't know in the kind of music and sound particularly for commercials, is there's this kind of centralized hub, which is kind of the Soho and Oxford Street area. And then it's definitely changing. There's more out east now and it's not like what it was when I started out, but that was kind of the place where all the studios were. So you got to know everyone else who's working at the other studios. And it's kind of this strange sort of pocket of the world where everyone kind of knows each other, but it feels quite sort of insular in a way. And these things that you are working on are kind of go out into the world, but then you are still in this small little bit of land where all this Yeah,
Cam (08:44):
Sounds like a breeding ground, breeding ground of commercial musicians.
Joseph (08:53):
But that was really, yeah, I cut my teeth by doing that. And my most previous job was with a great company and I think it was a really hard decision to take the leap, a creative director there. And it was hard to find reasons often when people go freelance and I think this can be the case that they have such a stressful environment or their employer is unfair, that they're almost forced into it so that they're not their boundaries, they they don't want to trampled on all the time. Whereas I think for me that wasn't really a case. It was just more I had this little glimmer of light inside me that said, I want to do this on my own and I want to go out into the world and see what happens and make my own mistakes and successes.
Cam (09:56):
But if I look at where you were and the position you were at and the projects that you were coming to, I think there's so much gratitude to the people you've worked with. I was also in awe about how loving, you've always spoken about this little family, almost like you were there for quite a while, but I just think within any creative, when you come to a place where the boundaries set by other people are just restraining and becomes a friction that isn't necessarily good for the process, it is it's time. It was time for you. You're brilliant. There weren't many more awards you could have won being in an agency. So you had ticked off all the boxes and you had the experience and yeah, it was time for you, even though it was scary,
Joseph (10:48):
It was scary. But as you say, I'm so grateful for all of those opportunities I got while Star was at that company and previous to that, because being employed and having that container around and structure to your life is just such an incredible way to learn and just to get the hours in doing the craft really, because there's a beautiful studio there for you to work in. And if you want to, you can put in all the hours at the weekends, you can do the evenings, you can sort of put into it as much as you are willing to and you've got all the kind of resources available to you to get you going. And I think I'm in huge admiration of people who kind of come straight out of school and are straight away doing the freelance thing because that to me is they're doing all of that as well as trying to run a business and make sure they're making enough to feed themselves and all these kind of things at the same time.
Cam (11:54):
But I think I can also sense that there is a bit of an experience gap. It's kind of like these two different ways of working and being an existing. And I've, during my period at Nasca and as a account director, I employed so many different people, not long-term employment, but what do you say, I hired them. So different types of freelancers put together different teams of different sizes. It doesn't matter if it was a small project or if it was a huge project, we always had to kind of tailor the teams depending on the skills needed and the requirements to achieve the creative height that we wanted. And I feel like I can say with confidence that there is a difference between those know the ropes of the inside of an agency versus the one who doesn't. Now there's no evaluation between those because sometimes you purely need an artist, someone who's home their own craft and they have their own brand and you need that specific flavor or skill or whatever it might be.
(13:05):
And then sometimes you just need someone who can plug into a team and who understands the cycles of the creative projects or just the politics of things. There's quite a lot when you put say 10 people together for a quite expensive project, there's a lot of risk and there's a lot of pressure to kind of make that work and you need to choose wisely in my teaching. So I've taught quite a lot at Hyper Island after graduating or at Bio School of Communication and different universities and so on about different topics. But there's always this kind of cluelessness sounds very negative, but you can really feel there are so many blanks that haven't been filled in and by the questions you receive, there's so much insecurity in regards to you can listen to as many podcasts you want about how it is to be employed somewhere or how it is to be in a full cycle of a creative project or how it is when shit hits the fan.
(14:08):
But if you haven't been there, it's still a little bit of guesswork using other pit's puzzle pieces to put your own tapestry together. I dunno why you would use puzzles to put a tapestry together, but you understand what I'm saying. So really having that embodied experience, I think for us at least, has been really good as we're embarking on this new chapter. And maybe we should mention that a little bit. I think a good thing to know about us is that we run a company together, we do this podcast together now, but we're also a married couple, which I think is also a different, it's another angle of why I think there's a lot of interesting dynamics within the topics that we talk about because our individual creativities kind of fit into each other and we stand and fall together as well.
Joseph (14:59):
Yes. And I think that that journey as to how we got here is equally important because when we met, we didn't live in the same country. And I think part of your journey or a really important part of your journey is moving to another country, to the UK and just leaving behind that really well established and renowned agency that you worked at to come here and do your own thing.
Cam (15:31):
And also the renowned crew, my community, my family, that's the biggest loss. I really, yeah, I'm in a process of not reinventing myself per se, because one of the things that I've learned now as we closed the last year, you and I had a bit of reflection and one of the key findings was that I'm exactly the same person. Just because you move country in context doesn't mean that your thoughts magically becomes something else, which I mean is a great thing. And because it just means that the relationship to yourself just gets stronger because no one else is there to reflect who you are. So I think that's something that's definitely been a big leap for me. Last year. I didn't at all, I didn't plan on moving anywhere, but then I met you when it was just a no-brainer. There was a lot in that staring yourself in the mirror of really like, okay, if no one knows you, who are you Then? So a deepening experience of knowing myself and building that up, but on a professional level, I didn't anticipate. So I went from full-time employment. That was my habit was the money's coming in, I have a stable job, good pay, all good stuff with a context colleagues belonging, all that to just moving countries where I knew no one except for you, and no one who I met knew my experience, like what I've done prior. I had to start all over again and I didn't anticipate how hard that was actually going to be.
Joseph (17:17):
Yeah, because I think for me at least when leaving, I obviously had called the freelancer fear that the fear of just not getting any work or everything going south, and whilst I had that, it quickly became clear that your network goes beyond just people, that there's a whole world of people who know of you just by association with either the work you've done or places you've worked or just generally having done the things you've done within a country or a city, which kind of connects the dots for people who you're meeting for the first time. But I think moving to a new country and new city as you did, there's none of that. So you have all the experience on paper, but people haven't got anything to attach it, to attach it to and to experience how brilliant you are, they will have to trust you and go with you on the journey and then in order to experience it. And that I think is a really frustrating thing because yeah, it takes patience because you've got to wait for them to experience that before, whereas there's no sort of foot in the door.
Cam (18:45):
But also for me to experience that there was so much grit, do you say that grit in terms of I needed to really stay focused on believing in myself because I went from a role that isn't the same as I have now. Even though I had done strategy for many years and kind of been in this practice of just being that and giving that to many clients and big clients, big names, when I then stood on my own fit wasn't a part of a context anymore of I needed to take full responsibility of the output of the work that I did. And there was just so much doubt in terms of that brilliance that you mentioned. I mean, it's hard enough for even to say that word about yourself ever, I feel. But yeah, the doubt that I had to overcome when I was taking those meetings or when I woke up and I was like, right, there's nothing in my pipeline. What am I going to do? So to connect to not so much the desire outcomes that you were supposed to have, but to find that inner relationship of remembering why you're doing this, what is it that you want to create and start by doing that.
(20:01):
There's so much in that whole step, the leap that I took across the city that I think is extremely valuable. I'm so happy already now that we did this, made this decision and took the leap.
Joseph (20:17):
Yeah, I think it would be good to pick up on this idea that the real experience of something that you planned for differs from how it was when we were thinking of it. I think this is sort of ties to this idea of unfolding and how things are just constantly changing in ways that we can't predict, and we often try to make predictions of the future and making plans. The future feels very good, but then the actual reality of those things ends up being something different, which then unfolds into something else. And I think that's something that we've experienced, I think in that we planned, obviously for this moment in our lives, we're both going to be doing this. And the reality of it in some ways has been as we expected, but in other ways,
Cam (21:08):
How has it been different?
Joseph (21:09):
I mean, I guess in your mind you only think about the great things and you don't think about the every day of reality as it's lived in every day, doesn't have the same allure as it does in your imagination.
Cam (21:26):
Domine shimmer,
Joseph (21:27):
The demine shimmer, yeah, that's a good way of putting it. But I mean that sounds like I'm saying it's not what we expected and in many ways it is completely what we expected. But yeah, I think that's a really interesting how things are never quite what you expect them to be, and you sort of have to just be willing to go with the changes of life because the unexpected is always around the corner
Cam (21:55):
With the whole over planning, or not necessarily over planning, but just trying to take control versus just accepting the circumstances and what is unfolding. I think it's really not an either or. I feel like people have a tendency to either try to take full control over something and the need of almost from an anxiety place of it needs to be designed exactly how I want it, and if it doesn't happen, then that's a failure. Or if I didn't get that job or if I didn't make this much money at this age, it's like a little trap because we constantly disappoint ourselves with not living up to those expectations. But at the same time, not planning is not an option either because nothing would just happen. And I think there's a middle wave where you can have this playful and quite joyous relationship with plannings and goals where it's more just a fun little treasure hunt or a challenge or something to figure out. And the search for that which you have set out to achieve is more of a dance. And that sounds very poetic, and I think it actually ties back to what you were saying. Reality doesn't feel like that, but I think if we can always remind ourselves that we're just here finding our way and we're engaging with what is unfolding so that we can at least play with the outcomes rather than just being kind of a passive victim or passenger of the circumstances,
Joseph (23:46):
The plan is always something to have to be in constant conversation with and not to be too attached to, but I think something that's really helps us is the only thing that really does give you a sense of achievement and progress is actual evidence. So when you've done the thing that you said you were going to do, and yes, in the day-to-day experience, it doesn't feel like we said the kind of dopamine drenched sort of dream of it, but yet the evidence of, okay, we're doing this, this has happened, and these things that I experienced in reality that we planned for happened that gives it's its own sort of form of contentment, of aligning what you say you're going to do and actually what you do.
Cam (24:37):
Yeah, you've made a tangible from idea to something actual physical or something you can look at or,
Joseph (24:46):
I mean, I think we've said to each other so many times, we're doing this, we're actually doing this. And it's funny at the time, it should
Cam (24:53):
Be our slogan if Nike is just do it, ours is like, we're doing this.
Joseph (24:59):
But it's interesting how you don't automatically congratulate yourself for those things.
Cam (25:06):
Yeah, I think it was interesting. I quit my job and did the kind of leap, I dunno, what was it, six months before you obviously, because I had to move country and we had to do some financial planning in terms of what if I don't find a job? What if I don't make any money? We needed to have a little bit of stability in me moving countries. But what I think was interesting is when I've been through that process for a few months and then it was time for you, I could literally see going into the weeks closing up to your final day and then the days and weeks afterwards and the process of thoughts, feelings, and really the journey up and down of, it's a confusing stitch, but it's also really, really fun. One of my favorite sayings is that anxiety is just excitement without the breath.
(26:04):
And I think that was the perfect example. Also, not like you're cliff jumping and you need to, you're have anxiety about that moment and then it's going to pass shifting your career or making bigger changes. It's a long game, so you really need to keep your mind in check because if you don't have the guardrails up of remember what you're doing in this focus on what you've set out to do, it's easy to just drift off track specifically when dreads and anxiety and doubt of yourself and your capacity comes. But this is interesting though, because looking around in just our industry or I don't know, influencers or some people are just hitting it, they don't seem to have any sort of limitations on their experience from a young age. They're just like, now I'm going to do this and now I'm going to do that. And I remember us talking about that actually in this process of if they can do it, we can too. We should be able to do it. But I think maybe it's just a personality thing or a background of where we come from our families, and I dunno, education and mindset and all those things have made us people who are I think pretty good at fitting in and serving others. While it feels a little bit more scary to stand completely on your own legs, but we could also feel that it was time.
Joseph (27:43):
And I think with those things, it's a muscle that's trained, isn't it? And I think people who do that from a young age, they have that fearlessness that they can just pick up anything and do it. Whereas at least for me, I was more sort of on the thing of like, oh, I've got to have a stable income, get a good job. I think it comes back to what we said in the introduction where yeah, there is no right or wrong way and it's a very good thing to be employed in job that you feel like is in any job really. And I think you can use employment, say it's a job that you don't like, that can then be a really good wayfinder to what it is that you do. And if it's a job that you do, then I dunno, I just think that restriction in terms of what employment gives you without having to worry about paying the bills or whatever.
Cam (28:37):
I also think though that having a job that you don't can actually be quite damaging because if you're not passionate about what you're doing and you feel kind of semi depressed every day going in, the chances of you feeling very creative isn't very high and perhaps it's going to put you in a state of like, oh, you're actually not good enough. I think I actually had that a little bit. Not that my workplace was amazing, but I was in the wrong role in a way where I was in the beginning just a project manager. And then what do you say when you promoted to account direction, which is just more fancy word for it, but having the overall responsibility for iactually, a ton of things. But then as the years moved on, I was working more and more and more with strategy, but I was never a strategist.
(29:35):
So it was always this back and forth in terms of am I not a strategist because I'm not good at it, or is it because I'm not allowed to? Or is it that it's just the organization can't fit that kind of transition to something else. And luckily, I really want to give a shout out to, well, to Freddie mostly who's the founder of SSNs because even though it was never the right time to give me that role description, he was the one who was kind of telling me, girl, your brain is strategic. You need to do this. And with him giving me the chances to really take a lot of responsibility in working with clients and them seeing who I was and then little by little seeking my advice and so on, that gave me the inclination of like, oh, this is something I should explore.
(30:29):
But I do think having the wrong role in that company also made me think for a really long time that I was just not good enough to make that leap. And now I quit that job and I went like, everyone's going to think I'm not this for real, and how am I going to do this? And then it's just got, all of a sudden I'm a strategist. People I work with even call me a senior strategist and I'm like, whoa, okay, that's a new promotion. But you have to be careful not to let your workplace define your ambitions and idea of who you are and what you're capable of. Because we're capable within a certain set rules when it comes to companies.
Joseph (31:13):
Yeah, I guess it becomes a sort of chicken and egg thing because without that experience, would you have the same approach? Say you had been given opportunities to climb a sort of strategy career ladder, I don't know that it would've resulted in the same, maybe something about it being an external thing would mean be less. Maybe there was something in that, the conflict of not of knowing what you are, but not being given the recognition fed in something that was valuable. Yeah,
Cam (31:54):
No, I definitely think you're onto something there. Even now, when I work with clients, I kind of very openly tell them, this is where I come from, this is how I think about strategy. I think that process has made me very, it's very little about my title. I really don't care about that at all. I just want to solve the problem. And with being so upfront about that and just being like, Hey, what you get with me is me, you get my brain. I don't care about what title you want to put on. It gives me so much more freedom to just suggest things and probe things and in a much more authentic way, get to the core of things instead of like, hi, I'm this and that's why I'm going to do this to you, or for you, here's the structure, here's the process where there's more freedom and flexibility with that. So I think everything happened just as it was supposed to really. But that's also just the mindset. You could definitely tell that story in more somber ways. But yeah,
Joseph (33:03):
That makes me think a lot about how, yeah, I think in any collaboration, people are looking for people. It's not when you start out, you think particularly if you have a craft, you're a designer or you're a composer or you're what it's thing, you really obsess about that thing inside that world. But in reality, people are just looking for people who they want to make something good with. And a film is a good example because it takes so many people to make a film good. And I think people are generally looking for people who also want to make a film good as their sort of, that's the primary role. It's not, and you just happen to be doing the music or you happen to be doing the editing or whatever it is. But yeah, it's kind of the outcome is the primary concern and then your contribution to, it's just something that, it just happens to be the case that those are the skills that you have, which is what you're offering to it. But yeah, I guess, and because everything, in order for the world to make sense, everyone has to have titles and external signals of this is what I do.
(34:29):
But that can quite often sort of boxes you in because you think that that sort of defines you when really in any collaboration, people are just looking for kindred spirits to make something with. And it can take so many different forms and different, every single collaboration has a slightly different hue, she say. And I think that was always what I've taken the most from. And I think the more time I can spend doing that, I feel, and it's like you kind of go away for a while. You think about it, you offer something up, someone adds in something else, and then you tailor it a bit more, and then you think it's just that ongoing dialogue as to how to make something as good as it can be has always been my main motivation.
Cam (35:24):
Yeah, I don't know if it's been my main motivation. I find it quite hard to collaborate in the role that I have now or the work that I do. I think it just so much deep thinking and it's very difficult then to take in ideas for others. Then it tends to just become word salads. And maybe it's because of my experience as project manager and quality assurance of an account director. It just gives me a little bit of anxiety thinking about, oh, the joy of collaborating. Because I think the roles I've had prior has been so much of being the scapegoat if something goes wrong, but then if something goes right, you had nothing to do with it. So I think I'm finding my way back there to maybe having a bit more of a healthy relationship in terms of collaborating, especially with you, it's such a joy to do it. We can get high doing it on nothing else but excitement. And also with my friends. And I know that the power of collaborating is very strong in other areas of my life, whereas in work it's always kind of been this slightly anxious state. But I think that's probably due to just the setup and experience of that, the role you're in, the flavor of that particular experience. Yeah,
Joseph (37:01):
And I do think there are, you're saying when you're writing strategy, it requires such deep thinking that collaboration in that way couldn't work. But then it's not like I would sit with someone and we'd be sitting at the piano and choosing notes together. It's very much similar. And I guess there is different, there's obviously differences in that you might need to go away for a longer time to come up with to go into the deep thinking required, but I sort of mean collaboration more that everyone is kind of bringing their skill to the table. So in this case, for me, it would be putting the music together or putting the sound together. But within that, when you collaborate with someone, you can interact with someone who doesn't know any of the kind of ins and outs of the stuff that you do. So then that there's a really fresh perspective. I mean, I always enjoy with what I do, looking at how an editor has used sound in the video before it comes because editors, well, some editors are very, very good at sound, but on the most part, their primary role,
Cam (38:24):
It's okay to say,
Joseph (38:25):
But editors, their primary role is a video editor. So they're approaching sound or music from a very different place where they're purely focused, the visual and they're not interested in any of the technical side or any of the sonics necessarily, or that there will be choosing sounds based on, yeah, it's just pure what they perceive as the story or the intention without any of the other production thing value that we have to get deep in the weeds of. So I think that's an example of it's a really nice, nice to collaborate people who are interacting with the craft from a perspective that's totally different to your own.
Cam (39:14):
But now when you say it like that, then just thinking about it from a slightly different perspective, I think I collaborate all the time just if I work now as a freelancer, for example, towards a client by myself, we kind of form a team. So there is a collaboration because without the client and their knowledge and their insights and desires or wherever they want to go with their brand, there wouldn't be any work for me to do before ever starting any sort of writing or any sort of conclusion work. There's so much offloading of that information and really a dialogue. I question things a lot because I think that's when you get to the core of things. So it's workshops or it's just one-on-one interviews like qualitative interviews or if it's knowledge sessions or just a conversation to really dig a little deeper to get to what they are.
(40:12):
And then my task is just to translate that. But that is a collaborative process because also after that, I do my deep thinking, present it, and then of course feedback. However, I think in general, I guess it's, it's not necessarily what feels to me it has to be what's right for them. But I also don't think that if you don't manage to hit the right spot in the first strategy presentation, I dunno what's going on, then it usually shouldn't be any feedback. Then you are off the mark and haven't either listened or you have too much of your own agenda or whatever it might be. But then of course, there's always the here and there wordings of this feels more right, or we just don't, I have a tendency to make things a little bit too poetic and they want it to mean more, everyone needs to understand this, everyone in the company. And then it's a process of dumbing it down whilst keeping the core the same, but a collaboration nonetheless for sure. And then there's the handover to the visuals, the visual creative. So a designer or whoever is going to take this out into some sort of expression.
Joseph (41:30):
It's very high stakes, but I mean, I guess all, yeah, that's the same with for me in that if you don't, it's always the most nerve wracking thing when you send something for the first time because then if you don't hook them in or you miss the mark on the first one, then it's very hard then to regain the trust that you're going to get it. You're kind of fighting an uphill battle then,
Cam (41:57):
But that's definitely harder in your industry or in the process of that you work because ultimately music and sound is so sub, what do you say, objective, subjective. Yeah. So I think that has more, it's an open goal for criticism in many ways.
Joseph (42:19):
Yeah, I think with a lot of these things, it's kind of a constant conversation internally. And I think you can always feel when your boundaries are being compromised because the process just gets, and it's not just when, it just gets a bit annoying and there's notes generally also come with internal dialogue because as soon as you have any degree of feedback, there is a conversation with yourself that you get better and better at, which is that people are not just throwing notes at you to make your life worse, but yet your body reacts in this way sometimes. And I think part of maturing as a creative is that you learn how to just deal with that and that's fine.
Cam (43:18):
Yeah. Because feedback or notes in itself, it doesn't have to be a negative thing. I'm not saying I'm against feedback or I love when smart people receive what I do, let it land in them, and then have a think of how to feed back into it to make it better. But you can sense when you've done this for a long time, when there's kind of like, oh, this isn't what I wanted. Or when it's not specific, when it's not adding. Yeah, I think that's when it loses the collaborative essence because people are just fitting back, this doesn't work, or I want it to pop, or can you make it bold instead of,
Joseph (44:03):
Yeah, they're sort of building the tower and instead and say there's something that's not quite right, instead of putting a brick, suggesting a brick go in a slightly different direction, they're just like jamming the bricks out of the bottom just and trying to make the whole thing tumble down.
Cam (44:21):
And I think that's the problem because sometimes you also have to decipher who is giving the feedback and in a very gentle way, in a very compassionate and understanding way. But for me, I tend to work directly with founders or CEOs or whoever is running the show of this company of different sizes. It could be a couple of hundred employees, it could be just a really small startup with a lot of ambition. But the fact is they're good at running a company or they're good at this specific thing that they're like in tech or if it's in innovation or if it's in products or whatever venture they have. And they hire creatives because they have a different perspective on what kind of functions in our world and what riches out and what cuts through and all these things. And I can sense a lot of the time when this business people feed back something that they don't understand the thinking behind.
(45:24):
So they can show references, for example, Nike, and they show references of the Nike Swoosh, or they show references of the tagline, just do it. Or they do show visual references from a brand who's really found their own expression and they've pumped millions into creating this position. So yes, you can have references for things, but they don't show a reference for like, oh, we really like the angle of the swoosh. That's not the thing. It's like, we kind of want to do what Nike did. Can you bring us there? And it's like, I mean, yeah, is that where can you go there? Are you willing to take the steps that it takes to take that position over and over and over again, not just talking about the financial efforts it takes, but also listening to creatives, letting the creatives do what you right now don't want to let go of.
(46:25):
But then of course, it can be people who really have good feedback. And I mean, I love working with them. Relationships are just so important. I don't usually take on work if I don't feel like we listen to each other and have kind of an understanding of the values use that we want to work under. I just don't do it either. And I think that ties back to what you were saying, people knowing you for what you've done, but also knowing you for who you are. That's a really bank that you have. And the more you can show up and be like, I am committed. I'm going to do this, they're more likely to speak well of you to someone else who said, do you want to transform the way you think and the way you work? Well go speak to her. But if you just want someone to kind of push it out, then go speak to someone else.
Joseph (47:18):
Yeah. So I think it would be good at this point to speak a little bit about what the framework for this podcast, and part of that, as I said in the introduction, is this sort of creative piece that we are going to put into each episode, which is a bit of a sort of anchor point for some of the topics that we're talking about. I guess this podcast was more introducing ourselves, but it all came under this theme of Unfold. And Unfold is a poem which you wrote some time ago, I believe. And we've turned that into a piece of creativity that we've made together. So perhaps you want to talk about the poem.
Cam (48:08):
Yeah, yeah. What to say. I mean, we chose it as the first episode because we're at a state, the year is unfolding and our journey as creatives is unfolding. And this start of this podcast is an unfolding in itself. And when I have to make sense of the world or if there's a conundrum that I need to figure out, I tend to process that through writing. So Unfold came in a period of time where I had done some quite deep work on myself, and I was in this in-between of shedding kind of the past of what was and leaping into what was becoming. So yeah, I thought it was suitable for this. As we embark on 2024 and this journey, what is unfolding and a moment for you to just integrate kind of what we've been talking about, and yeah, I hope you enjoy it. It feels a bit scary. I haven't shared my poems publicly ever before.
(49:19):
I fold, unfold, I fold again, drawn and made, stretched and baked, fold, unfold, massage and pound, I form and deform, take shape and deflate from a mold that is unique just for me. What a lucky girl I am to be
(49:57):
For its only me. The set made from the same ingredients since the dawn of time, a mix of sweat and blood in our body, given by the divine, a piss of origami, made it of stardust with a bidding heart met, enjoy men's pain already from the start, the pain of being one with all but separated by birth. I seek solitude, but I long to be one, being together and apart all at once. Yes, I am parted, yet I yearned to be apart, grasping after something to hold onto, only to realize that letting go is the only way to ridge that which is beyond you. I fold, unfold, then I choose to hold my breath for a second. To remember that the quiet still place within is as fast as the ocean. And my breath is wind. I sit sails and I breathe out. I go on a journey across cities of hope and doubt. I might survive or I might drown in the word so profound. I want to make sense, make me clear, not thick and dense. I want to be light bright. I want to be beautiful. And I might find my way to the truth,
(51:43):
The truth beyond the horizon I'm yet to find. But I take a chance and take the journey through the body and into the mind for the ones who dare to seek shall discover what it is to be both a child and the holy mother. I fold, unfold, I fold again there the all sitting eye of the beholder, just as I am a piss of origami, made it of stardust with a beating heart. And this right here is where we start, what will unfold as I fold again the origami of a girl just like you, but only as I am.
Joseph (52:46):
Thanks for tuning in to the first episode of the Dragon in the Stoic, the podcast where we discuss the creative industry, a life of freelance and artistic expression. The next episode will be released in a month. We hope you tune in again. Until then, take care and nurture the courage to create.
