Episode #2 The Graveyard of Pitches

In this episode, we discuss failure. After a recent rejection of a music pitch, we dive into the open wounds that failure brings into the game of creativity. Inviting you into a conversation covering the pitching process, the relationship to negative self-talk, and external validation.

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Cover illustration by the wonderful Hanna Nordqvist.

Transcript:

Joseph [00:00:09] Welcome to the Dragon in The Stoic, the podcast where a writer and a composer sit down to share insights from the creative industry life of freelance and artistic expression. Each episode is a container in which we explore craftsmanship, relationships, processes, and how to live a life with the courage to create. Finally, we will end each episode with a moment integrating the topics discussed in a curated, bespoke experience. All that is, you just have to find out. But I guess it's the result of what happens if you put a wordsmith together with a composer. Welcome to the second episode of 2024 The Graveyard of Pitches.

Cam [00:00:59] Welcome back to the Dragon and the stoic. Our very first, second episode. I guess every episode is going to be the first for its kind. But yeah, we're a bit senior now. We've done this one time, before now.

Joseph [00:01:12] This is not our first rodeo.

Cam [00:01:14] No, it's literally our second. How was it for you to launch the first episode?

Joseph [00:01:22] It was very scary, but also hugely exciting at the same time. I think the thought that people were going to listen to that. Didn't feel too scary in the lead up to it until we actually. Kind of press the button. And I think there is people who I've heard people talk about in the past, this. Feeling of just before you release something. There's almost like a flood of new information that comes out because, you know, that is to write about, you know, it's going to be public the next time you listen to it.

Cam [00:02:01] Yeah you listen to it from people's perspectives instead of just like your own, you know, creative perspective.

Joseph [00:02:08] Yeah. Like I've heard lots of people who post things on YouTube all the time that have sort of teams around them, they still make sure that the person to press post on every single one, just because that moment just before posting is kind of you get new insights about it. Feeding it before. But yeah the fear of failure was present for sure. And then it was just out. And then once it was kind of over the line and out, it felt great, felt great that we had done it and put it out into the world. And, there was lots listening back that I would like to continue to improve upon, but I think that's the same with putting anything out. And then you just keep going and go at it again. Yeah. How was it for you?

Cam [00:02:55] Yeah. I mean, we kind of shared that, entire journey from posting and then kind of sitting next to each other on cell phone, like, what do we do now? But yeah, it feels great that it's out. And I think it's such a good practice of actually sharing things with the public, because you do let go of control to a certain extent. And, I mean, we're not doing this to become like podcasters and we're not doing it for, fame or whatever, you know, reasons you might want to do a podcast. It's very much like put us on a trajectory where we, challenge ourselves. We, slowly but surely build a community of people who might resonate with what we're we're thinking and, you know, doing. But it's still crazy that looking back at the stats, because you do you get to get stats on everything now others. And there was people from 16 different countries listening. And that to me just was like, another reminder of the internet, you know? Yeah. How on the earth was see people from 16 different parts of the world, listening to our voices in the aether is just. Yeah, it's very cool.

Joseph [00:04:08] It's very cool. Yeah. It makes me think of the original sort of dream of the internet. For internet 1.0, which was exactly that. And it's kind of the best part of the internet, isn't it, that we're able to say something here in our home and someone in. I mean, I think there was one person in South Africa. Was it. Or I can't remember. Whoever it is in South Africa we love you. But this is the I mean I would never have thought someone would listen to him. But then you forget our community and people that would listen to us is all over the world.

Cam [00:04:43] Yeah. So 51% of the listeners were in Sweden. So shout out to my Swedish crew. There will be a context still when which country will have the biggest audience. And I'm rooting for Sweden.

Joseph [00:04:55] So this episode is about failure. And this topic kind of just appeared to us didn't it. It wasn't necessarily what we planned to.

Cam [00:05:08] I mean, it didn't appear to us it got shoved in in your face because you failed.

Joseph [00:05:14] I failed, yeah. I mean, I went through a process with the music pitch, which is often the case with music. Well, certainly in music for media, films, adverts or or the like, where there is a pitching stage and in a way, almost every job that you do as a composer, although I do, it does feel like a pitch to an extent, because even if it's an existing relationship where there is trust, you still need to prove that you still got the the thing that, you know, they trusted you in the first place for the juice, the juice. Right. And so I think over the years I've come to get better at this, you know, this world of pitching and how you win some, you lose some. But this one in particular was, was a big, big one to lose. And I think the what I ended up doing had a lot to it. That and that is why that's become the kind of nucleus of this conversation. I think something that was seen as a failure actually was very important to and these, you know, all these failures are very important to the ongoing creative process and learning from them and also constantly practising not to take the failure as some discouragement.

Cam [00:06:39] And a little to so for everyone listening to this is that at the end of this episode, you will be able to, listen to this film because you will listen to Joseph's, real life failure. And it just feels good to kind of give this, this piece, little platform within our own kind of, with our own intentions of just sharing authentically both what was created, what we really liked and, thought was an amazing piece, but for some, reason, didn't get picked in the commercial world. And. Yeah, just to give it a bit new life.

Joseph [00:07:16] Yeah. And I think there's something that feels almost cathartic about that, because there are there's so many pitches in the world, not just in music that go on, unloved. And yeah, I think, a shout out to all those, all that creativity that, that doesn't see, doesn't see the light of day.

Cam [00:07:39] Yeah. Maybe we should call this episode The Graveyard of Pitches.

Joseph [00:07:43] Yeah. Put a put a flower down on each graves to.

Cam [00:07:46] Grieve all the lost souls. And for anyone curious about how a process like this can look like from getting a brief of this pitch and then getting selected out of all those different pitches, and then you spent a few weeks working on this and constant feedback loops to perfect this, this piece and then to get rejected.

Joseph [00:08:08] I think there is a sense when you're pitching that, you know, with each round of feedback, it feels like you're getting closer and closer to the, the landing, the gig. But really that sort of the you're also always trying to tell yourself, well, nothing is nothing is approved here. But yeah, it's impossible not to feel like when it's just getting better and better and better and closer and closer that that to start thinking that it's going to happen. And I think in this case, I got a bit more attached than I normally would because the style of the music was very much, you know, as a composer, you often write in different styles, but sometimes you land on a brief that feels like it's really intuitive and feels like it. It kind of plays to your strengths.

Cam [00:08:59] And that was it's exciting, like it feels. From my perspective, it really felt like you were in in some sort of, innovative space where, like, so much is happening in the track that is just a bit unexpected as well in relationship. To the the film as well.

Joseph [00:09:16] But then to go through the process and then for it to it ended up going a completely different direction. That was nothing really to do with anything that I was doing. And it was interesting in the fact that when I was, when I got the news that, you know, obviously wasn't going to happen, I wasn't as disappointed as I thought I might have been. You'd think after putting that much work in that it would be incredibly disappointing, which it was on some level, but it felt like there was some purpose to that. And, you know, even if that purpose is just stays here, is this podcast like that felt meaningful? It felt like there was going to be some kind of purpose to it that was beyond this commercial. So. That's about all I can say about it. And it just felt good to to give it another. Place to, to live. So speaking about this failure dynamic and it does, it feels like quite an enormous topic because there are so many kind of tributaries and avenues. We could go down with this. But one thing I came across that really piqued my interest around this, because obviously lots of very smart people have talked about failure over the centuries, but something that Marcus Aurelius said was, just as nature takes every obstacle, every impediment, and works around it, turns to its purposes, incorporates it into itself, so to a rational being can turn each setback into raw material and use it to achieve its goal.

Cam [00:10:49] The whole mouthful there, but wisdom.

Joseph [00:10:51] It's a bit of a mouthful, but, I love the analogy to to nature because nature is just in constant state of change and repair and death.

Cam [00:11:04] Death. There's so much destruction and.

Joseph [00:11:06] These micro failures that we experience in our life. I think that's quite a comforting thought, to think that that's just in this kind of. Undulating texture of all things without getting too floaty with it. But you know, there's something if it reminds you that you're part of something bigger, it's kind of the same as walking down to the ocean. And we're lucky enough to to live close to the sea. And just to see that these bigger forces will be here long after this microcosm. Yeah. Which we're living in.

Cam [00:11:39] But also, I feel like the nature lacks the ego we have with being attached to like, failure or decay or death or whatever is like, not just like pumping with prosperity in life. We have a tendency to judge that as something inherently bad. Whilst I feel like nature is just like, oh yeah, it's just part of it, maybe, you know, so it's definitely something that we've constructed and I think it's a part of, specifically in the Western world that we find ourselves living in and, under, you know, its structures. I think it's even more prevalent here because we have these ideas of what you need to achieve in life and how to kind of post in society, successful or unsuccessful and all those, those very subconscious, like lessons from life that we've picked up makes it very hard for us to, to deal with failure without feeling like immense shame. Or if we're filling a mansion, how do we kind of alchemist that into something that's, you know, expensive, unproductive. That's something that humbles us for life and, like, feeds our creativity and so on. So I think it's. Yeah, as you say, it's a topic we speak about failure and like failure fast and do it again. And, you know, like, there's, there's a lot of this.

Joseph [00:13:06] BMA wisdoms around the topic.

Cam [00:13:08] Yeah, exactly. But I think what I'm lacking in life in general probably is the the expression of the genuine, to allow the feeling to be the raw feeling, not the afterwards conclusion, because I think it's so easy in our world that we we shy away when we're kind of like in the process of feeling something. And then afterwards when we figured out how to speak about it, that's how you show it. And you, you, you only speak about it if you if you manage to also make it into something good. Otherwise you actually don't, talk about it. Like I can't remember when I heard someone just sit honestly and talk about something that they failed without have had a solution for it. I mean, we were doing it with this podcast in a way as well, like, oh, we're going to give it the new life or we're going to, yeah, put it to another, another purpose. But I think that this, this, approach is a little bit more connected to the raw feeling of like, it's just happened. Like no matter if we public publish it on this, this podcast, it's still got rejected. Like, it's that's just the the, you know, it didn't get picked up by some other label and then it made millions, you know. So remember to fail. So yeah.

Joseph [00:14:29] The pressure to please other people and.

Cam [00:14:32] The ego, it's, it's I think it's both. And those go hand in hand because I think that we see we see ourselves through the lens of other people, which is why we reacted, you know, a bit like on the inside when we publish this podcast, episode one, it's that moment that you talked about this, the moment where it's going to be witnessed by other people not threatening. That can be because through the eyes of other people, we judge our own value or, you know, progress or whatever it might be that we're doing.

Joseph [00:15:02] Is external validators. I'd like to hear about your relationship with failure wouldn't you. I would. Has it changed at all over the years. How do you sort of wield this beast?

Cam [00:15:16] Yeah, for me it's changed drastically from something I desperately tried to escape at all costs to something I'm not necessarily encouraged on a daily basis, but I like method at a daily basis. And I think that kind of close relationship that I've nurtured with it over the past few years or a decade now, it's it's beautiful to witness that journey within myself because I had quite an early encounter with failure. You know, I was in my, later years of high school or just when you're about to, you know, finish and go out and be an adult in this world. I went from an a full a grad student to having circumstances in my life that kind of were a bit chaotic for many different reasons. And naturally that reflected in my my grades as they do. And seeing this beautiful pride filled is morph into something that was just above average was, horrible. And my like, I didn't realise it then, but I was very depressed. I didn't have the vocabulary for it. And, I people didn't talk about mental health as they, as they do today. So not only was I like a struggling teenager and that, well, I think everyone can relate to is really difficult. But within that struggle, I was also just like sitting my the person who I identified as the little glimmer of hope of like, maybe I am worthy of anything, you know, or maybe I'm worthy of something. Was very attached to those grids. What's interesting to think back on is that when my my grades started dropping, it just actually made me pull back even more. It was kind of a weakening of control of some sort of like if if I can't have an it, I'm not going to have anything kind of approach, which if you translate that into what adult life is or kind of the context of what we're talking about now, is that it was clear that I instead of just like getting into the ring, I just pulled away because I didn't want to let my attempts be kind of graded and reflect anything that I couldn't accept, at that point. So this is just a tiny little speck of the entire story. Of course, that was just so many things, learned and what happened. But I won't bore you with it too much. But I think it really it gave me an invitation into, like, a world of darkness that I'm so, grateful for because I had to, at an early stage, really crumble and fall kind of, and then rebuild myself. And it was a long time that I identified as kind. Of the the high school. What would you call a dropout or the high school, failure, like, call? What's going to become of this girl? I just literally felt like there was no outlook for me in life, because we have this very clear. Pathways, that we're supposed to take in which, you know, to trod along and you're supposed to get this exact degree. And, I just couldn't do that at that time. And. Yeah, it took a long one for me to kind of, find a relationship that was based on, like, self-love and self-worth.

Joseph [00:18:43] And whether any. So in that journey from that, the girl at high school who was, you know, purposely not trying in order to not fail. Were there any kind of clear markers on the way from there to where you are now in terms of the really redefined, this sort of. Relationship with failing.

Cam [00:19:07] Yeah. So I don't think that there's like a defining moment. I think it's a constant practice and it's something that you have to, do redo, undo and learn like, throughout life. But I think I'm really grateful for the relationship that I have to it. Thanks for the experiences that I had early on. And I mean, it sounds a bit contradicted because it was horrible. But it's kind of nice to know what it's like to be in those scenarios. And they do define you in some way in terms of kind of the power you have to alchemist your way out of it. And I always have this image of kind of like sinking towards the bottom, and you desperately just want to get up to surface. And no matter what you're trying, like you're trying to swim, but the weight of your failure of a piece of a human being is kind of it's too heavy. So you're you're just sinking and you're super scared about what, what's going to happen down there, like, and in this scenario, you won't drown because it's just your inner darkness. It feels like you're going to drown, but it's actually just, you know, you're not in water, but in this metaphorical water. We're really scared about what's down there. But the good thing, with kind of self-acceptance of what is, is that when you finally touch your feet on the ground, I think that happens in correlation when you kind of go, oh, was this it? Like it's this the scariest it can get. Is it so scary to think that I'm incapable of this? But if I'm capable of this, then what? Like I have no. No, I have no where else to to to think in this scenario. Whether. Yeah. How miserable can I become before I just accept that I'm miserable? And once that kind of acceptance which comes in, which sounds easier than it is because it's so. Dark to build down there. It's fucking lonely. And it's. It's despair. Like embodied. But once you down there and there comes in a glimmer of hope of like, okay, well, if this is it, if this is the darkest and most miserable I can get, what do I need now? And there's just a switch from like running away, because then you keep seeing this for as long as we run away from things, we don't phase them, and we don't have that kind of confrontation that we need in order to be like, okay, now I'm ready to move on. And not necessarily, you know, just move on us and run away again, but maybe ask for help or support or give yourself the love that you kind of needed all along in order to actually achieve the things you wanted to do. Because I had to find out that, you know, it wasn't my intellect that was wrong. It wasn't that I internalised it in high school as like, well, what if I'm just stupid? But that's not what it was like, baby girl, you just needed a, you know, a bit of, attention, care and, encouragement and time to heal a few different things. So really stepping into that self nurturing and understanding that, like, we all are capable of things if we just give ourselves the right, circumstances now, like the whole thing with external, achievements is always going to be a bitch. I think there is no way you can get around that, but I think not attaching too much what other people think or like the storyline that's displayed outwards. Because if you look at, for example, the school journey I had from being this like, yeah, I like the we don't call it the high school dropout in Swedish, but you know, that image of the disturbed teenager? I mean, it was just a few years after that that I got asked to come in to universities to give lectures and like, teach. And to me, that was such, what the fuck moment, because I completely rewired a story from just being so, hopeful. And there's no pathway for me, and.

Joseph [00:23:10] Well, that's that's interesting, isn't it? Because everybody's looking for the piece of logical advice that someone can give you to kind of is what you just described. And and it seems to me that there isn't really. You can't tell someone how to experience that unless they've experienced it.

Cam [00:23:34] Yeah.

Joseph [00:23:35] But yet that as a product of, like, this person has this certain energy about them because they've been through that is something everyone wants to hear and wants to listen to.

Cam [00:23:46] Yeah. And I think the advice that I give people, like, I have a lot of friends who can testify to this, but sometimes when they go through really hard things, I'm like, good for you. I'm so happy that you are like, you're at this place because I can't wait to see how you get out on the other side. If you allow yourself to be a complete fucking failure right now and I'll. I'll be by your side. I will love you through it. I will hold your hand at the bottom and just, you know, support you in actually looking at this shit and even encouraging it with some tough love sometimes and some self-love sometimes. But it's all love. We just need to have the courage to look at it together. Because there's just so much to gain in exploring your inner realms of the shit we don't want to look at, or the things we don't want to think about ourselves like. If you think the worst of yourself, there isn't really much that the outer world can, can do to you. Like I feel quite immune against other people's judgements because, like, well, I don't give a shit, watch me. Like I'm going to do what I want to do. And yeah, I really encourage, if anyone's listening to this and they're they're in a place where they feel like they're not aligned with, you know, their expectations on themselves or from the outer world, and you feel yourself slipping into a spiral, like use that spiral because we shouldn't avoid the spirals, the negative spirals, I mean, or the positive of them, and.

Joseph [00:25:18] I mean the ancient Greeks going back again. I love the ancient Greeks. They really just seem to have a lot of this stuff.

Cam [00:25:25] Maybe you reincarnated nailed down.

Joseph [00:25:27] Yeah, yeah I do. It's. I find it fascinating what their lives were like in that they were just pondering these things and, and and kind of coming up with these universal wisdoms. But I haven't got the quote to hand, but Marcus Aurelius also had something to say about this, which was. You know, you shouldn't think of the misgiving or the failure as. Misfortune or become bitter, yet you should see it as good fortune to bear the burden worthily. What I take from that is the. You know, if you're able to think of a different way of accepting this misfortune that you've had and being able to kind of use it in order to get better or to to do something else, then that in itself is the good fortune and is a kind of tool against becoming bitter.

Cam [00:26:20] Yeah. And I think we're all just storytellers, and we really need to be, cautious and aware of what are the stories that we tell ourselves, because it really is going to impact your experience on this earth and in this life. And there's a lot of toxic, you know, positivity and people just. Yeah. You know what? I only speak about positive things. Just focus on the positive. But I think that kind of misses the point. The point is to find the beauty in the pin and to to not want to make the pin something else than it is, and to just see it for what it is to like. Take a stroll down a really dark alley in your own soul. And just to appreciate for like, the vastness or the width of experiences that we can have and that to to be able to experience, it is the gift in itself.

Joseph [00:27:15] That makes me think a lot about how now we've almost become, or at least at least it feels like, obsessed with optimising. So getting the perfect start to your day. Getting the perfect, you know.

Cam [00:27:30] All this? I see another YouTube video. That's my morning routine I'm going to throw up.

Joseph [00:27:36] But yeah, I think with all this stuff, it's like. With all this optimisation, you're creating more. Chance you creating more failure. Because when you don't do those things, you somehow get spooked as if you can't do the thing that you want to do without doing those things. Yeah. Well superstition I guess you call that.

Cam [00:27:56] Yeah. What are we optimising for? I think that's also a fundamental issue right now in the times that we're in, because all the innovation that we have around us should ultimately free up time so that we can, put our energy on other things. But every single tool that still comes out just frees up more time so that we can work even more. And then we're just. Yeah. And it's the same with optimisation. Things like what are you optimising for? I don't I think we've gotten lost there.

Joseph [00:28:22] Well I do think some, some of it is it's not all optimising for work. Some of it obviously is. But some of it's like it is true that if in my experience, that if I wake up earlier, then I feel more in tune with my circadian rhythms.

Cam [00:28:38] And you love your mornings.

Joseph [00:28:39] I feel better. But the problem is, is that you. Yeah. I mean, it's very easy to get superstitious about it because the day that you don't have that thing, then you almost feel like, well, I've not done the thing. Useless now I can't. And it's just nonsense.

Cam [00:28:57] And if you have that story in your mind and then you get a decline of a pitch, you're really a useless person. Like, it just builds up this negative kind of self-talk that we have, and it outer circumstances becomes proof to our own inner failure that we're already whispering about in ourselves.

Joseph [00:29:15] Another great example of interacting with failure has been your writing and your journey towards becoming a published writer.

Cam [00:29:28] Yeah, I'm not optimising that. Okay. I'm really. That's a work in progress. I want to, carve out because that's like time and and my own emotional resources because it's so important. But I have not optimised it. But it's a work in progress.

Joseph [00:29:45] Well, I mean, you say you haven't optimised it, but you've you've sent it to publishers who are speaking very favourably about it. So.

Cam [00:29:53] Yeah.

Joseph [00:29:54] Fuck the optimisation. Fuck.

Cam [00:29:57] Yeah. And I think this actually ties back a little bit to the whole long ramble about my school, experience because I didn't grow up thinking like, oh, I really want to be an author one day. I feel really unattached to, to that title. Like, if I get one of my stories published, that will be super dope. But it's not necessarily, something I'm, attached to. It would just be like a really fun experiment of like, wow, is this how you can interact with the world? But things that I just draw out of my brain and have so much fun creating, if that actually sticks with the public and perhaps, you know, gets read by someone who enjoys it. That would be that would be really, really cool. May, I've sent, a script to a few publishers in Sweden, and, I did that earlier in this year. And I got a few responses back. The first one was a no. And of course. That didn't feel good, like it didn't. No matter if I'm like, no, I'm not attached to this outcome. Like it just didn't feel good that, oh, maybe, maybe I just can't do this. And like, I really made a conscious effort at that time to note how my self-talk was, was, was blabbering. And perhaps because I was quite aware of it, it didn't stick around for very long and I was just, okay, I'm just going to focus on the things that I'm doing right now instead. And then a week later, two yeses came in. And like, now I'm in the process of just figuring out how publishing works and speaking to them and to the various deals and what to look out for and, and so on. And also took note of how did myself Taco when I did get a reply and. Yeah. How you. Yeah. What you said there speaking favourably about it. You know like I obviously understand that that just right that because it's it's a give and take and that. Yeah. The they want to butter me up because we could possibly like they're being polite. That's that's what I'm thinking. I'm not taking that to heart necessarily. Because I don't want to build up any.

Joseph [00:32:05] Expectation.

Cam [00:32:05] Expectations. Yeah.

Joseph [00:32:07] I think a healthy way to, to approach these kind of dialogues, though, is to take it at face value, to be like, yeah, they're being polite for a reason because they want they, they're interested. And I think it's easy to be cynical and say, well, they must say that to everyone. And, you know. Yeah, but the fact is, they're not saying it to everyone. They're saying no to a lot of people. And they are being polite and courteous and whatever you want to call it to you. Yeah. Ultimately they read it, they think it's banging and you know, the conversation continues.

Cam [00:32:40] Yeah. But also I feel quite brave to talk about it because it hasn't been signed. We haven't you know come very far in the process. And there's a long way to, to go still and it might end up with it not being published for whatever reasons. And that's okay. Like it's okay to have aspirations and just experiment your way on this. Yeah. Treasure hunt, as I called it. Last episode of life. And just see what you find and throw throw some past on the wall and see if it sticks. And not be scared if it gets a bit too messy. Yeah. So. Yeah, I guess that's a good, just for any creatives out there or anyone else for that matter. I mean, everyone's creative. I really don't ever want to become a person who says, you know, for the creatives and exclude people, because I do genuinely believe that if we have a different set of like, perspectives on what a creative is, then everyone would be so forever. Whoever is listening to this, just yeah, just try it out and speak about it. Don't wait until something is just achieved to be able to have fun during the process and talk about it, because I think we can learn a lot from just being a little bit more messy. Together, publicly.

Joseph [00:33:55] You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

Cam [00:33:59] Yeah. Look.

Joseph [00:33:59] This this I know I'm going to quote Karen today.

Cam [00:34:04] But to round up this conversation, I think it will be interesting to listen to what you think about what would this what would failure be in the context of this podcast. Because we're just in the beginning, so anything can happen. What will failure be to.

Joseph [00:34:19] I think failure primarily would be not doing. It would be the first kind of big failure tick. That would be the first thing. And then I think. Yeah, some some sense that we're getting away from our intentions with it. And that's not to say that our intentions at the beginning need to be fixed and can't change. But yeah, in some way starting to make something that we think, that a certain group of people. Is going to. Like. And that sounds contradictory, because I suppose in doing this and sharing us there is, it's hard not to think of a certain type of people that might like this.

Cam [00:35:05] Our family.

Speaker 3 [00:35:06] Oh, yeah.

Joseph [00:35:07] Primarily. That. Thanks for listening. But no, I mean more I mean, I read this book last year called Doppelganger by Naomi Klein, which really talks about this. This idea that in this now we we're so accustomed with creating online avatars of ourselves, effectively creating this kind of self brand that. Kind of creates this problem because there's two of us. There's the online us and there's the real us. And and however large, it doesn't really matter. Obviously, the pressure gets so much more intense the larger your audience gets. But I think in any case, if you're just sharing. Things to your friends on social media. There's there's an expectation there of how you post and how you share things publicly. That I think creates this sort of like conversation, which I think it's very easy to slip into. Yeah, it's almost like. Like, I believe we have a desire to be consistent. It's quite hard for us to, you know, and we've said we've expressed some kind of view or opinion about something. When we see that person again, in an ideal world we would like to be consistent. I don't know. I'm not quite sure why that is, but it seems to me to be the case. So I think when you're putting things into the the internet kind of void, that desire to be consistent and to. Yeah, keep giving people what you perceive that they want could create some kind of issue, which I think would amount to a failure if not kind of kept in check.

Cam [00:37:01] Yeah. Yeah. I guess it's the if we start chopping up the content that we have in order to like bridge, lessons or views or that we, we kind of skew the content of this in order for it to be optimised. For.

Joseph [00:37:19] I mean, we want to optimise to some degree like we want it to be, you know, hopefully produced well, recorded well and hopefully giving people something that they can take away.

Cam [00:37:29] But then an optimised for the quality of, of conversation. But that's not clickbait or, you know, creating campaigns in order for it to, to make people listen to this. I kind of want to see this podcast as like slow TV, you know, an antidote of short clips, just so that people can get to the point then, like, it's kind of nice to reclaim a good conversation. So that's that's one thing that I said, at least. So I came across this article, written by Govender. And, he was writing about this phenomenon. Phenomenon that I think, Eric Winston was coined, called audience capture. And it was a great article, about how, yeah, how are we more for the audiences and how easy it is to lose, lose ourselves when we're only reflecting kind of what, when or when our jobs become dependent on the public reactions online. How is it as to more morph? I'm one of the examples whom I had never come across before. I don't know if you had heard about him before, but it's called, Nick Accardo Avocado as a YouTube phenomenon of this. He started out as a 16 year old super sweet vegan guy who was, like, playing the violin and trying to really take care of his body. Those only. Yeah, well, eating a lot of avocados and fruits and was like showing up the on his health journey together with his boyfriend. And then one year he decided to, stop eating vegan and became, omni editor. And started doing mock bangs at the at the same time. And at this point in time on YouTube, mukbang was really like a big thing. And for anyone who's lived under a stone and don't know what a mukbang is, is you chat to people while eating, recording yourself, or doing it that live stream. So you're kind of having a meal with someone. And he's sort of doing that in the transition of going from vegan to and he started eating really unhealthy. So he more like went from a on a journey from being super health oriented vegan to eating quite unhealthy. And the more unhealthy he was eating, the more positively people were responding to his videos. And this rapidly grew to the point where they were just like egging him on to eat as much crap as possible. And if he was doing that, he would get more views. I think he even had those, you know, Twitch live streams or whatever it is where people could donate or based on how much you could eat. And I mean, now it's many, many years, forward. And he is so. Yeah, it feels mean to say it, but his his turn into this grotesque being that is absolutely wrecking the internet with so much like when I was watching this. Just do a little bit of research, I left feeling my nervous system needed a little bit of recalibration because there was so much dissonance in how his acting. I mean, this is not about, you know, fat shaming, but the crying, the screaming, the extreme volatile behaviour of how how dramatic. And this disturbed can I be to keep you entertained. And obviously he is huge today. He needs he keeps having goals about how much he can gain now instead of losing or having positive things. So he constantly goes to the doctor like he needs to have one of those face masks now and he just wobbles around his fat in this video. Smashing so much unhealthy food. And this is a perfect example of, I mean, obviously a very extreme example where, audience capture really took this quite sweet, innocent 16 year old at a place in time where he was very, porous to the impression of others and how much effect that had on his life. And I think he's over 30 now. And he kept like historically has been saying, when I turn 30, I'm going to do the biggest weight loss journey. So you can you can watch me. But now he's over 30 and it's it's not happening. And I really think that we we can't think even if he's playing like, a charade because there's, there's, you know, not rumours. There's theories that he's just a very smart businessman who's, like, hacked the thing. And, you know, people draw those kind of conclusions that he's aware of what he's doing. But there is no way that a soul and a conscious mind can just act and be someone for the camera, because through them, we see ourselves to some extent. And if we're not careful, I think it shapes us. So I think to drive back to us, a big fear is that we do become this optimisation quote, spitting.

Joseph [00:42:17] Potting contest. I will not be smashing 20 burgers. We will.

Cam [00:42:23] But you know what I mean. Like a version of that, not, just tries started saying things that aren't authentic to us just because we know that that was resonance at the market right now. And also maybe, you know, doing too much research before. So it doesn't really become an, calculated conversation, like, I think there's something to protect there. Because ultimately, I think my goal in life as of now, because I might change my mind now to what you said about consistency, but it's to, like, unlock autonomy through authenticity. And I want to do that in every area of my life, whether it's my writing or, you know, pursuit of being a person who, daringly speaks online. Or if it's in partnership with you as a wife. Yeah, I think that's it. But before we end this episode, let's talk about the pitch that we're going to hear.

Joseph [00:43:22] So what you're about to hear is the music pitch we discussed earlier, and this felt like a special project because it meant that we actually got to collaborate because we needed to have some lyrics. And it's an amazing gift to have such a lyricist on hand when needed. Why don't you talk a little bit about the lyrics and sort of what song is about?

Cam [00:43:51] So the lyrics for this piece was obviously created, according to a specific brief that we got, and it was quite interesting to kind of work within those parameters, and not be too on the nose, but it's a motivational piece about finding the inner motivation to really just, just do it. The things that we, really wish that we could do. But perhaps the fears or anxieties about the potential failure keep us from from doing it. But if we pay attention, we can kind of feel this inclination that something is calling us to dare to believe that it's possible. And it kind of creeps in like an echo from distant dreams. So that's all I have to say about the lyrics and the artwork. Also, I want to mention that we have on this. This is an illustration by Hannah Nordqvist, and I'm sure we'll mention her many times. Again, because I'm also collaborating with her on another project. But, a huge thank you for that beautiful contribution.

Joseph [00:44:58] And not only did we collaborate, we also collaborated with a singer called Kesha Bailey, who's amazingly talented and just kind of brought the whole thing to another level. I hope it's going to work listening to it without any visuals. I've tried to kind of extend the track a little bit so that it functions a bit more like a piece of music. But yeah, I hope you enjoy it. It was super fun to put together.

Cam [00:45:24] Rest in peace, pitch, I love you.

Joseph [00:45:28] That sounded like you said. Rest in peace, bitch.

Cam [00:45:30] Yeah, it's. I think.

Unidentified [00:45:44] Oh. Oh. Here you go. They put them. Snake.

Speaker 3 [00:47:09] It is. What?

Joseph [00:47:58] Oh oh. Thanks for tuning in to the second episode of The Dragon in The Stoic, the podcast, where we discuss the creative industry life of freelance and artistic expression. The next episode will be released in a month. We hope you tune in again. Until then, take care and nurture the courage to create.